Leading Through Change in 2025

Change is the only constant in business—but how we manage it makes all the difference. In this episode of Avidly Talks, Paul is joined by change management expert Mike to unpack the human side of transformation. Together, they explore the emotional journey individuals experience during periods of change and why strong leadership, communication, and empathy are critical to success. From understanding the change curve to avoiding common pitfalls, Mike shares practical strategies for guiding teams through uncertainty with clarity and compassion. Let’s dive into the key takeaways from this insightful conversation.

Listen to the Full Episode here

Listen on Spotify

Takeaways from this episode:

• Change management is about supporting people through transitions.
• The change curve includes stages of denial, identity crisis, and acceptance.
• Effective communication is crucial during change initiatives.
• Visible sponsorship from leadership can enhance change adoption.
• Understanding the emotional aspects of change is essential.
• Tailoring communication to different audiences can prevent fatigue.
• Identifying potential resistance early can help mitigate issues.
• Change management is a skill that can be developed over time.
• Engaging change agents within the organization can facilitate smoother transitions.
• Regular check-ins with teams can uncover hidden resistance and questions.

Chapters 

00:00 Introduction to Change Management
02:05 The Importance of People in Change
03:25 Mike's Background in Change Management
05:49 Reactions to Change in Organizations
07:40 Understanding the Change Curve
11:47 Emotional Aspects of Change
13:21 Pitfalls in Change Management
17:15 The Role of Communication in Change
23:43 Handling Forced Change
25:10 The Importance of Visible Sponsorship
27:17 Common Mistakes in Change Management
31:37 The Human Element in Change
37:29 Practical Tips for Change Management

Navigating Change with Empathy: Lessons from Avidly Talks

Change is inevitable in any organization, but how you manage it can determine whether it leads to growth or resistance. In a powerful episode of Avidly Talks, Paul is joined by Mike to explore the human side of change management. Drawing from real-world experience and psychological insight, they discuss how to lead teams through transformation with empathy, clarity, and purpose.

1. Understanding the Change Curve

One of the central themes in this conversation is the change curve—a model that outlines the emotional stages people typically go through during organizational change. From shock and denial to acceptance and commitment, recognizing where individuals are on this curve can help leaders provide the right support at the right time.

Mike emphasizes that leaders must anticipate emotional responses and tailor communication accordingly. People aren’t just resisting change—they’re processing uncertainty and potential loss.

2. Communication is Key

Effective communication is essential when guiding people through change. Mike and Paul stress that transparency, frequency, and clarity are crucial. Leaders should explain the "why" behind the change and provide consistent updates throughout the process.

They also note the importance of two-way communication: listening to concerns, acknowledging emotions, and making space for feedback. When people feel heard, they're more likely to engage and adapt.

3. Leadership and Emotional Intelligence

Navigating change isn’t just about strategy—it’s about emotional intelligence. Leaders must be able to manage their own emotions while recognizing and responding to the emotional needs of their team. Mike shares how empathy and authenticity can strengthen trust and encourage buy-in.

He also highlights that leadership during change requires vulnerability and courage—being honest about what’s unknown while reinforcing a shared vision for the future.

4. Common Pitfalls in Change Management

Mike outlines several common mistakes organizations make during transitions:

• Rushing the process without giving people time to adapt

• Neglecting communication, especially after the initial announcement

• Assuming everyone is on the same page

• Lack of leadership alignment

Avoiding these pitfalls requires intentional planning, consistent leadership, and a culture that values adaptability.

5. Practical Tips for Managing Change

Throughout the episode, Paul and Mike share actionable advice for managing change effectively:

• Start with empathy: Understand how change affects people personally

• Map the change curve: Anticipate emotional responses and plan accordingly

• Prioritize communication: Keep messages clear, honest, and human

• Support managers: Equip frontline leaders with the tools they need to support their teams

• Celebrate progress: Acknowledge small wins to build momentum and morale

Conclusion: Change Starts with People

Organizational change isn’t just about new systems or structures—it’s about people. This episode of Avidly Talks is a reminder that successful change management starts with empathy, emotional intelligence, and strong leadership.

Whether you're navigating a merger, restructuring, or tech implementation, leading with humanity makes all the difference. Tune in to gain fresh perspectives and practical tools to help your team move through change with confidence.

Transcript:

 welcome to Avidly talks a mostly marketing sales and hopes for focus podcast today we talk about change management with my colleague mike from over in the u.s. how you doing

Mike Wessel (01:11.6)
I'm doing great, Paul, how are you?

Paul (01:13.378)
Yeah I'm good thank you. Spring has definitely sprung over here in the UK. We always end up talking about the weather on these when I have colleagues on because we're scattered all over. Good morning for you isn't it still, technically.

Mike Wessel (01:25.168)
Yes, yes, it is good morning. is a quarter past nine here in Kansas City. Spring has definitely settled in. I've had to mow my yard already. I'm getting my landscape cleaned up. The birds are chirping. Yeah, it's a good time of year.

Paul (01:38.031)
I'm on the... Are you aware of cricket as a sport? Yeah, yeah. The WhatsApp group with the club, like barmen and chairman, groundsmen, of. I help with the social media. That's this week's grass cuttings. It's only Wednesday. So yeah, he's just getting it ready for the new season. Right.

Mike Wessel (01:42.276)
Yeah.

Mike Wessel (01:58.736)
No.

Paul (02:05.9)
There's a fun or easy cheesy link there to something to do with changing into a new season but you're here to talk about change, change management, helping our clients through it, helping your teammates through it. Basically why is that such a good topic for you to talk about?

Mike Wessel (02:25.498)
Well, I've had a lot of experience and practice around it, but as I think about the impact it can make, where we are with industry today and with business, there's industry 4.0, however you want to label it. There's so much focus on the technology. There's so much focus on the tools. AI is dominating every conversation these days. What change management can help us do is really think about the people and keep the people in mind.

with so much innovation happening, with so much change happening, we need to be thoughtful about the people and how can we give them the right support to move through change effectively. And right now that's with such an increase in focus on all these cool new tools and AI, we're just kind of at times not thinking about the people and how do we get the people comfortable and ready to actually put these tools to work? Because it still is going to take people to put the tools to work.

Paul (03:13.582)
So you've at Avidly six months or so now as part of the Avidly team. You've been at Blue Frog for a couple of years. What's your background with change projects throughout that time and before?

Mike Wessel (03:25.39)
Yeah, great. So I was fortunate enough to work with Lexmark International and at Lexmark they had a really good program called Driving Change. And that's where I first kind of learned this structured approach, learned some of the tools and techniques. And since then, right, I think about these tools all the time and the impact they can make. That program was awesome. We brought in some real change gurus.

They taught us these principles, which it's not rocket science. think it's pretty basic stuff and a lot of, it's just reminders for many of us. But we took those tools and then they actually put us on actual internal change projects that were happening on the business. And they had us kind of be these change coaches to think about the change strategy and to be thoughtful about the communication plans and who's got to sponsor it and when the train is going to occur and really put it into practice so we could think about it.

the change that our team was on, how can we get people through their change curve as fast as possible and get from that current state to that desired future state as fast as effectively? So it was awesome because we got to learn the principles but then put it into practice right away. And then I was kind of seen as one of the change agents, as one of these change ambassadors for years. for years after that, I was often brought in to help with any kind of big change that was gonna impact a lot of people.

that I could kind of put my change agent hat on and help us think about that strategy side of things to really help people move through their change curve fast.

Paul (04:54.638)
One of reasons you hear us talking about this is that as we talk to customers or you look at happy customer stories when we get good reviews and what people talk about is actually we're helping with the install a new HubSpot website or HubSpot CRM but what people actually talk about is Mike and Paul you really supported us through this new website process you really helped us change to this new CRM it's actually

it doesn't matter whether it's HubSpot or whatever, the tool will sort of take care of itself, but it's that human side of change isn't it? When you're working with people you talk to them about Industry 4.0 and a lot of change going on around us at the minute whilst we work. How are you seeing people react and companies adapt to the changing landscape, changing tools whilst also making some fundamental changes like adopting a new CRM or adopting a CRM for the first time even?

Mike Wessel (05:49.732)
Yeah, it's really, I kind of feel like it's two different camps is what I'm seeing. I'm seeing people who are thoughtful about it and recognizing that we need to take some time to think about the people side. And again, they might not have been trained in change management, but they understand just inherently some of the core principles. And that's kind of one camp that we see. So they're kind of like, yeah, help us think about the communication, help us think about that skill building plan and help us think about how we're going to measure success and those kinds of core elements.

And then there's another camp of people that they're just going to put the tool in place and they're going to have the launch day and they're going to expect that people are just going to get on board and what they're just missing the boat. They're not thinking about and acknowledging that as humans, if we're going to get from here to here, each of us has this process to go through this change curve before we can kind of get on board with it and be accepting for the solutions. And they won't craft their communication that way. They won't think about the coaching that the may.

Paul (06:29.838)
Hmm.

Mike Wessel (06:48.632)
managers should do for the team. They're not restating the case for the change to begin with and letting people understand the why. And all of these are very simple moves that a company can make to help people kind of get through that change curve faster and get to that future state as fast and really get excited about it and get on board. So they're just not thinking about like, can we support the humans to move through this change?

They're just too excited about the tool. They're too excited about that future state or whatever the gains are that they've made the decision to begin with.

Paul (07:21.046)
and told you it's going to be better so just trust me and do it is because the house in the right place yet you work in life will be better when this project is done let's do it what's the you talk about change can't there couple of times getting people through this change can you break that time what what what you talk right now

Mike Wessel (07:24.27)
Yeah, exactly.

Mike Wessel (07:40.506)
Yeah, absolutely. So the methodology that I've learned, and there's a few different ones out there, but they all kind of have the same common principle. And if we can kind of picture our current state of productivity over here, and we want to get to this desired future state over here, then the change curve suggests that there's going to be a natural dip early on. And we go through a couple of stages before we kind of get on the rise and get on the board towards that, embracing that new change and getting to that desired future state.

And it breaks down a couple of phases of it. The first couple of phases are really where we've go, we're going to go through feelings of betrayal and denial. We're going to, we're going to really have a lot of questions around why, why are we moving that, that process to a new place? How come we're that with that tool? I was used to that tool. Like, why are you changing the tool? It is natural that we're going to have those thoughts and we're going to be in shock. We're going to be in disbelief at times. And we have to kind of go through that. We'll go through it quickly.

and some of us don't need a lot of support just by kind of our personal nature and others are really gonna sit there, they love the status quo, they don't like to, like if it's not broke, don't fix it, have that kind of mentality. So those are the people that really need to have more thoughtful communication and they need support in that early stage because they're gonna go through it.

Mike Wessel (09:04.912)
I've lost the auto,

Paul (09:08.27)
Are we back? Is that a common thing in somebody's entire life or is it to do with certain aspects? Do they like sitting in the same seats at a ball game? Do they like driving their car and uncomfortable getting a new one? Or is it just specifically a work thing?

Mike Wessel (09:09.114)
Yep, that's it.

Mike Wessel (09:29.112)
I think it's definitely a little bit of human nature. It probably shows up in multiple aspects of a person's life. There's some of us that are the early adopters, right? I'm the guy that's going out and getting the latest tech and playing with the latest tools. love, I'm comfortable, you know, grabbing the alpha or the beta and realizing that, there's going to be some kinks. There's going to be some things that are off and I'll stomach those. Cause I want to try and test it out. There are others that don't ever want to be that first person to test out a new tool, a new technique.

Paul (09:56.29)
And there's nothing wrong with that.

Mike Wessel (09:57.7)
There's nothing wrong with that, absolutely. So there's definitely a little bit of human nature. But the good thing is change management is a skill. And as a skill, we can practice it. We can get better at it. We can learn to improve and we can build up a new muscle, a stronger muscle. So yeah, it's a little bit of human nature and kind of personality traits, but it's also a skill that can really be practiced and improved.

Paul (10:20.64)
I guess a strength of knowing I'm not an early adopter. I thrive when everything's settled and I can keep maximising the benefits even though someone like you might because an early adopter might have got bored six months ago. I'm really cranking out the results now. anyway, I derailed you. We go through betrayal, denial and then...

Mike Wessel (10:40.944)
Yep, so there's kind of two final stages. So we've gone through that dip, we're getting through that shock and disbelief, and then we're in the stage that's called the identity crisis. We're still suffering on some level. We're still not quite entirely sure what's gonna change. Is my role different? Do I still get to work alongside this colleague I've sat by for years? Is my routine gonna be different? Like how am gonna log into this new tool? it's gonna take me a while to really figure it out. I'm not gonna be.

Paul (11:07.512)
but at least you're engaging now.

Mike Wessel (11:09.348)
You're engaging, right? Yeah. So you're starting to come back up, but you're not quite fully on board with where that desired future state is going to be. So we get through that identity crisis. Again, we need to support the individuals there too. And then eventually we get into the acceptance phase and that's when we're searching for solutions. We're really on board. Things are starting to click. We're starting to understand how to use the new tool or how that new process is going to work or even just how to work with a new team. If maybe that's the change that hit me is my team structure changed.

But on that point, then we're on board and we're starting to kind of come up out of that change curve and get from that current state to that desired future state.

Paul (11:47.929)
nice, nice. I think that the words are very emotional is what stands out to me. So when we're talking about the human element of it and being thoughtful for that, it's not just practically thinking of time in and mapping out phases and things like that. know, betrayal, denial, crisis, these are all powerful, powerful emotive words aren't they?

Mike Wessel (12:11.002)
Yeah, absolutely. And that's where the focus here is really about the people. So there's kind of a core concept. When change is designed for the people, not just for the systems, you're going to build lasting behavior. You're going to get that adoption you're after. You're going to get from here to there a little quicker. And that really is thinking about a lot of the emotion that they're going to have and anticipating it, trying to identify where do we think the resistance is going to come from? What are the questions going to sound like?

Again, it's not rocket science. So if we just put a little bit of time to think about those in the different audience groups, then we can really think about what kind of communication do they need and when do they need it? We can think about that, you know, the managers, how can we give them that, that FAQ? How can we give them a coach guide? So when their team comes to them, they actually have answers to the questions. doesn't. Now go ahead.

Paul (12:59.406)
So it sounds like putting it, go on. I was gonna say it sounds like, yeah, you might have made the decision you're changing to that tool or you're changing the structure or whatever the change is in your business, but it's making the decision and starting the change. There needs to be a bit of a gap in between so you can get these things in place. Yeah.

Mike Wessel (13:21.168)
Yep, yep, absolutely. And that's one of the core principles. I know, you know, one of the, as we kind of prepped before this, you wanted to kind of think about some of the pitfalls were there. So I'll kind of jump in on that. One of the biggest pitfalls that I see is really from the people that are making the decision for the change. You know, let's say it's, you know, somebody adopting a new CRM, a place that, you know, we do a lot of work in this space.

The leaders have kind of been vetting this for a long time. They've been kicking the tires, they've been doing the demos, they've been getting the proposal, they've been finalizing it, right? That sometimes can take weeks if not months. And then they finally kind of sign on and we're ready to start. So they're already through their change curve, right? They're away from here all the way up to there and they're excited about getting to here too. And now think about the rest of the org.

the rest of the org probably hasn't even heard that we're considering the new tool yet, right? They haven't even remotely started to realize that we're gonna go from here to here and they haven't started any aspect of their change curve. So the best advice here is really to be thoughtful about those early communications. The leadership team, the team that's involved in the project, they've gone through that change curve early, so they're already accepting, they're kind of excited about that few.

Paul (14:36.814)
Do they go through it quicker as well often if you're a business founder or an entrepreneur? I imagine you go.

Mike Wessel (14:39.514)
They typically do, yeah, they typically do because they're also part of the evaluation and there's a lot of evidence that suggests if we're kind of part of decisions, we've got more buy-in to it, we're likely more on board with the eventual decision and the outcome. But if a change has been impacted on to me, I'm more likely to just be naturally resistant to it. So that's a lever that people can really think about. How do you...

How do you get some more buy-in and support to the decision from others is definitely something that can help people move through their change curve faster. But whether or not they've been involved, when the leaders come out and start to announce, they need to recognize that we're there and their change curve is fairly irrelevant to the communication plan and to the messages the rest of the team needs. So one of the biggest pitfalls to avoid is putting out that inspirational language early to the broader team. Early on,

when people are going through that dip in their change curve, they really need informative communication. Give them the facts, give them the timelines, let them know when the training's gonna happen. Let them know who to go to with the questions.

Paul (15:43.246)
It's, It sounds so counterintuitive as a leader though. You think, I'll do the right thing, I'll get people excited.

Mike Wessel (15:48.282)
Right? Right. It is, and that was a really big unlock for me when I went through this, is just recognizing, because again, I'm an early adopter, so I'm really excited to rush and get over here, and I can see that, I can picture it, I can feel it, and then my emotions kinda tie into that as well. But you gotta check yourself, and you gotta sit back and realize, hey, the rest of the people, early on, they need just the facts. They need time to go through their change curve, and to go through that dip.

And at that point, they're not ready for the rah-rah cheerleader speech. What they really benefit is understanding the case for the change, like what led to the decision. And they really need to understand the burning platform, which is why and why now? Like what's the cost of the business if we don't get from here to here? How much longer are we going to have more costs than we need to have? Or is it gonna take us too long to chase that revenue growth that we're after because we haven't put in a new process or a new tool?

Those kind of things, those business case elements, they should have been thoughtful and decided when we're actually making the decision in the first place. But a lot of times that just stays with the leaders and stays in their heads. And that is really gold for the rest of the group when we're putting out the basic information and announcing the change. Share those facts, share those data points, share the justification, share the case study that we, share the nuggets from the reference call that you made. Those are things that can really help people begin to move through their change more effectively.

Paul (17:15.02)
Why don't people leading a change at a business do that more instinctively? Instinctively.

Mike Wessel (17:22.064)
I think it's a little bit of not really putting on the empathy hat and really thinking about where the others are at and their perspective. And again, sometimes it's, you want to lead by example, you want to be excited about it, right? So there's a natural kind of tendency there to like, okay, well, let me put on that cheerleader speech and let me be the rah-rah person. And it's just not aligned to where the other people are at in their perspective at the time.

Paul (17:49.135)
make sense, make sense. I think you must have seen some places or some examples of where this has gone wrong and maybe you've done it yourself by the sounds of it we've all gone through our own learnings. Have any stories come to mind that make you think, ah man if could do that one again? Definitely.

Mike Wessel (18:09.38)
Yeah, absolutely. One that comes to mind, was a couple years ago, we worked with a mid-size company and they were switching CRMs, right? So had been using a system for years, switching over to a new CRM. At this point, when we were engaged with them, the execs were fully bought in, right? They were excited. They knew all the gains. They knew that the new CRM was gonna be more configurable than ever. They didn't have to have as many admins on staff as they used to.

they could make changes to the system much more rapidly than they needed. They could add new reports and automate workflows. And it was for them, like they were super, super excited about the change. But they didn't involve much of the broader team on that decision and that thought process. They really weren't involved in any of the kind of demonstrations. They didn't really have an understanding of tool. And these frontline managers, they're the ones that had spent a lot of their time and effort getting the current tool to where it was.

and having all their meetings wrapped around, looking at the reports and the dashboard. So it was really unclear how this new tool was gonna allow them to keep on the pace with the same meetings, the same one-on-ones, the same monthly reporting. So it was really unclear for them about how their day-to-day was gonna change for them and for their team. So that was a good example where we really came in and said, hey listen, we gotta think about a change strategy, we gotta think about a plan. And this is again, not a heavy lift to add.

but it was really just thinking about that communication plan and thinking about training their managers, building a kind of layered communication plan. we have the big town hall, send out some things via email, and then give the talking tracks to the managers for their one-on-ones. Where most employees want to hear most of that information really should come from their direct manager. That's where they want the questions answered. once we layered on that communication plan and some better training for the managers in order how they could coach their team.

Paul (19:46.563)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Wessel (19:59.148)
It really changed the game for the overall adoption.

Paul (20:02.56)
Nice. Have you ever seen any, like, might be out in the wider world, but have you ever seen any, like, good examples or bad examples as well of, I don't know, change happening and you can see people going through this curve? It might be an administration change in politics. might be people adopting using AI, I don't know.

Mike Wessel (20:28.796)
yeah, I mean, I think it's a little hard for me to answer because I see it all over the place. I'm like, they didn't really, like, they didn't really think about the sponsor in that case. or they didn't really think about that. There are new skills here. So you actually need to have a training plan. yeah, yeah, you really do see it everywhere. and, know, even on the personal side, right. There are times where, you know, my kids are in high school and there are times that, you know, something will shift and change and I can see them.

Paul (20:34.477)
Heh.

Paul (20:44.046)
You must see it in like sports and everything. You must just see it everywhere, yeah.

Mike Wessel (20:58.062)
just get into that dip and they're sitting there and they have these emotions start to hit and they're heavy and then recognizing like, yeah, you know, we changed the plan for next weekend and I didn't let them know why we made that change. That could have probably just calmed down most of that emotion if I wouldn't let them know, hey, this is actually a line that like they wanted to go do this other thing next weekend and it's gonna work now. But for them, it was just a schedule change and they didn't hear the why for me. So their immediate.

reaction was that shock like my god what happened so that's a myth so yeah I even see it the personal side.

Paul (21:31.598)
is a good go-to reflex to develop. Make sure you've explained why.

Mike Wessel (21:37.796)
Yeah, for sure. There's a lot of value in starting with the why. Anybody who's studied Simon Sinek and his golden circles, right, start with why. That same principle kind of applies here. But really when we think about change, if I'm gonna put my change management hat on, then I think about two big elements. One is the case for the change and the other is the change strategy.

And the case for the change is fundamental to understand and to use in your communications and have your sponsor message it, reinforce it, have your managers and the coaches hit on those elements. And that case for the change needs to explain the business rationale, have all the logic, right? Tell me why the process is gonna be faster. If it normally takes a week, now we're cutting it to two days, or it used to take 10 people to do a thing, now it's only gonna take seven.

There's some type of data and facts and logic that has gone into the business plan for decision. And that is a critical part of it. And then the other element that really combines with that is what we call the burning platform. That's what's the sense of urgency. So the business case is kind of the why, the sense of urgency and this burning platform is the why now. Those two together become really, really powerful for people to recognize. There's been a lot of thought and...

that's gone into the decision of going from this state to a future state and it is a better spot and it is a better spot for all of us to be. And if that gets shared, communicated, and then revisit it, reshare it, have the repetition to keep bringing up those business case metrics and help them really understand why we have to do it now, that should help people start to move through that change curve a little faster.

Paul (23:19.394)
What advice would you give to people who are perhaps the ideal scenario would be to do everything you've been saying, slow down, get the lead comms in place, get the support, one-to-one support lined up and all that kind of stuff, but sometimes that's just not possible. It might be a change forced upon you as a business. What would your advice be for people in that situation?

Mike Wessel (23:43.918)
Well, in that situation, the biggest thing is to really think about your different audiences and stakeholder groups and to really try to pinpoint where do we think the most resistance is going to happen. If, if, if there's a certain group that's impacted in a larger way than others, maybe we give them the focus and try, you know, try to pull a couple of people, like just check in with them. Like, Hey, have you heard about this change? Like, what are your thoughts about it? Where's your head at? What kind of concerns do you have? A really big part of it is.

understanding where that resistance is likely to come from and which groups, if it's gonna hit some groups different than others, then we can zero in and identify where we perceive the resistance to happen, what losses do they feel they're gonna occur, are they actual real losses, are they just perception? And then the rest of our plan can really orient at mitigating the impact of that resistance.

Especially if it's just a perception of if people think a process or a tool is no longer going to be available and actually is, then great, just have that question, hit that question head on and they can just set that fear aside. So a lot of times it's really, if there's anything to focus on, it's really try to understand where that resistance is going to come from and then just think about what's our best way to mitigate and reduce that resistance. Is it just having a sponsor that's visible? Maybe that's enough and a change plan doesn't need to be more robust than that.

Paul (25:06.54)
What do mean? What do you mean by that? Having a sponsor visible, what does that mean?

Mike Wessel (25:10.404)
Yeah, having a sponsor visible is definitely one of the big pitfalls that I've seen a lot too. So having a sponsor visible is really about having someone that the people can see that's going to champion the change. And it should be someone at that senior level. and they shouldn't just be, you know, off in the distance, but they should be actively part of the trainings. They, lot of the communications should at least have them as part of the communication, not necessarily giving all the communication, but they need to be there and they need to be reinforcing that vision for the change.

what is this business case, and why now? That visible sponsor also sometimes can really help work across different stakeholder groups. If it's a really big company-wide impact, they might need to get a couple other department heads to be part of that coalition with them. Now we have people that are close to all the teams, checking in with the teams, really walking the talk and leading by example.

Paul (25:54.318)
All

Paul (26:01.912)
So it's a bit of a go-to for sort of me and you might be doing the one-to-one and you go, you're managing me and you say, look, I don't have all the exact ins and outs on that, but John over here does, so why don't we go and have a chat with him and he can answer your questions in more depth. Yeah.

Mike Wessel (26:19.716)
Yep, yep, absolutely. And the other big part that that that visible sponsor can really impact is adding that authority and credibility that the change is needed and that we've got to get from here to here to be a better business, to be successful. And they really can help demonstrate that the company is committed, the organization is committed to that change and then they themselves as well, because there's nothing that's going to slow down a project more.

than anyone that feels like this is an optional change. that visible sponsor can really help reinforce like, hey guys, there's a real clear business case. We're gonna be better if we get from here to over here. Lynn, let's all get on board. I'm excited about it. I'm here to support you. Your team's here to support you. And that's really a major impact of what a visible sponsor can add.

Paul (27:10.604)
So before I ask my next question, are there any other common things that people miss when it comes to handling change?

Mike Wessel (27:17.636)
Yeah, I've had a couple of them already, having those leaders just already being through their change curve and assuming everyone else is, and then the sponsorship is a common one. The third one that I'll share is really around communication and it's a pitfall of communication fatigue. And it tends to kind of go on one end of the spectrum either there's not enough clarity and too little communication, or there's so much noise that people just drown it out and they stop reading emails and they stop listening.

Right? So I know you can't win. You got to think about it. And, some advice and some suggestions to help with that is really the messages and the communications, they need to be thoughtful about what role we're connecting with, like which group is it? a lot of times we'll make one general message and try to have that message hit to all the different groups rather than realizing maybe some groups only need a little bit of the information and tailoring the message to them.

Paul (27:48.47)
You can't win, Mike.

Mike Wessel (28:15.904)
It's something that we know as people that do a lot of marketing, right? You gotta hit the right message, right people at the right time. And trim out everything else that's irrelevant for them. So when we're creating our communication plans, it can be different by role or by team sometimes, and that's good, that can be okay. But then also with it, I've mentioned the managers and their role, they really are the linchpin in so many change projects. So really equip them with the talk tracks, not just the timelines.

but give them a talk track, right? Have them reinforce that why of the business case. Give them the FAQ of the questions we've anticipated. Let them know where we think resistance is likely to come from their team. Because really, overall, a change plan that doesn't have good manager coaching is just a series of emails, probably.

Paul (29:02.816)
and i imagine that works up and down the chain as well sort of could be a marketing director who's getting their CMO or the rest of C-suite onboard as well as their own team and their sales colleagues across the street and things what are those signals that people need support in the organisation? what are some of the if someone's in identity crisis or someone's in denial are they just refusing to use the tool? are they sulking at you?

I'm talking about employees now, not just the kids.

Mike Wessel (29:32.57)
Yep. Yep. Yeah. Sometimes it's pretty clear and sometimes it is a, can just sense their body language, their posture, their energy level. There's usually a good time to check in after a training, right? Have a good follow up after like, Hey, did this make sense? Is it starting to soak in? Or is this frustrating? Like where you add on, on, you know, the, thought of adopting this. Did you start to see where that business case is coming for us to get to a better future state?

Paul (29:58.713)
And I'm starting to see when you said about the managers being key. So big organization, post training survey, easy. But then, line manager, go and talk to your people.

Mike Wessel (30:01.924)
Yeah. Exactly.

Yep, just have those check-ins, right? I can't underscore that enough. Because some people, again, they might share and it might be very open and visible. There's others that are gonna be kinda almost silently quitting on you. And you're gonna have to check in with them and you're gonna have to kinda pry and find out like, really, is this making sense? Do you understand? Do I need to restate the why for you? Are you making the trainings even? Did you check that document that got sent out?

It really just takes a little bit of follow-up to check in and you'll get a pretty good sense and read then of kind of where people at, are they getting through their change curve yet, are they starting to get excited, are they still just have a lot of questions. That's more than anything one of the biggest signals that they still have a lot of questions and it's questions around like why is this happening, when and where, then that means we're missing something in the communication, we're missing something in that coaching.

Paul (30:55.758)
And I imagine people can be in denial and not know it.

Mike Wessel (30:59.044)
Yeah, sometimes. Absolutely.

Paul (31:00.706)
Yeah, I'm picturing, you know, clients I've worked with and it's, and you do understand that you've literally paid us to make, you don't do that anymore. Yeah, yeah.

Mike Wessel (31:11.312)
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. It's kind of an interesting, like there's a, there's a line that I've used a lot too. And, we can write a company, like we can buy a Ferrari and be excited about how fast that far I can go. But if our team is still learning how to ride a bike, we're not going to go very far. And that's where we come in. Like oftentimes there is just this human execution gap. And that's what this discipline of change management is all about.

Paul (31:37.455)
Discipline to coming out actually is the theme. I think that's maybe the first time you've said it out loud but it is discipline to wait. If people are needing support to come through the crisis phase, give it. Otherwise the whole thing's a waste of time anyway, isn't it? Very nice. There's some really good frameworks and structures there. I could really pick your brains on this all day. As soon as I saw your presentation and some of the graphs you've got, we need to put those with it.

Mike Wessel (31:52.89)
Yep, absolutely.

Paul (32:05.728)
not future and i just think sorry and lastly what comes to mind as some good stories smooth change scones mainly communication with on point

Mike Wessel (32:17.776)
Yeah, I've got two good examples I'd like to share. One is recently we helped work with a SaaS company and they were redesigning their sales process. Initially, when we thought about the communication plan, the change emails, the team thought, on the client side, they were gonna have just a general project management alias be where the emails came from, right? Very impersonal. Who knows who's behind that? Who's even watching it, right? You can just picture all the questions that people are gonna have like, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna send my questions there.

So when we got into it, we were like, hey, you gotta flip that. All right, this is talking about your sales process. We need the VP of sales to be the one that's engaged and being the voice behind this communication. So with them, it was a real simple shift, less emails and more VP talking to their team. And and it kind of a key point with that group was we flipped the VP of sales and we got him on board to just record a quick little 60 second update every Friday.

share a couple of team wins, kind of personalize it to where people at getting through the curve, share any kind of learnings, right? Acknowledge some of the elephants in the room if there's, you know, something didn't work right in the initial rollout. And just having that little check in from, right, somebody that was really directly on their team at the leadership level, it really, really shifted that adoption mindset with the team. And you could start to see people really leaning in. You could start to see people sharing their feedback as well. You could tell that they were on board of getting from.

you know, from your work. Not always. No, not always. And that really, you know, good segue. I didn't tee up for this, but so besides the leaders, one group that can really be impactful and powerful is a group of change agents, call them change ambassadors. So another good example that I was going to share, there was a professional services organization we working with and they were implementing a big workflow automation. And with them,

Paul (33:44.502)
Is that always the leader who leads this change? it? No.

Mike Wessel (34:13.066)
As we were co-creating the change plan with them and that strategy, we really identified that it was going to be a big benefit to have a cross-functional change agent group. And this was like getting down to the user level, right? People within the different teams, the different departments, not just the execs, like we still had some sponsorship plans and all that, but it was leveraging this change agent group, getting them formed, and they really served as these change ambassadors. And they were that team that the employees could really lean on and learn from.

These were peers that were sitting next to them, right? They were doing the same role, doing the same job, and these were people that weren't hard to find. These individuals are usually pretty obvious in most orgs. You can really tell someone who's like me and maybe is an early adopter, someone who's gonna be excited about it, somebody who's gonna be a good coach, a good confidant. So identifying that group, they really became the voice of the transition for that project and for that organization.

So again, there should be something coming up from leaders and managers, but a lot of times it can be finding these change evangelists and get them in place. And that, for that company, it really made it a much smoother project. And then the other really huge benefit for that company, now they basically had a more change ready culture going forward, because they already knew who some of those people were that they should bring into the next big change.

Paul (35:13.806)
Hmm.

Paul (35:30.382)
Do people drop off on that scenario in particular where there's a group within the group who's spearheading or leading this drive through the change curve? I imagine that feels doubly betrayal. Betrayal, betrayed, betrayal. You know what I'm saying? You feel doubly betrayed if you're not in that group and all those guys are racing ahead.

Mike Wessel (35:54.53)
It can, and if you come across someone that has your, you're sensing that's kind of where they're at, that's likely somebody who should be a candidate to jump into that change group next time. Or somebody to pull into those, those early conversations. A big part of like, if this is a really, really big change, like we're really implementing a new CRM across the company, that's going to impact a lot of people, right? So part of the guidance is really to go out and actually do some stakeholder interviews early.

Paul (36:04.397)
Right.

Mike Wessel (36:21.09)
and check in with people and that would be the kind of person that hopefully you've got to read on this is somebody who really wants to be an active part of it, they want to contribute early, pull them in, have a conversation with them. And that conversation looks like, hey, we're gonna go from here to here, here's what the change looks like, hit them with some of that business case and why now, and then just ask them, where do you think your resistance is gonna come from? What questions do you think people are gonna have? Like who's gonna be on board with this and who's gonna be just sitting back saying like, who moved my cheese? Right, like.

Paul (36:48.678)
And especially if you've thought, I think that's going to be you, Mike. So let me be you. Yeah, genius.

Mike Wessel (36:53.316)
Yes. Yeah. So bring them in and they'll help you identify some real key areas to focus on in that change plan.

Paul (37:00.27)
I love that. So I think that's my one bit of advice. I always finish with a tip you can get started with this quarter or this month. But I think that would be mine. From everything you've said, identify who you think would be resistant to the change you're going to install and have them help you. Because if you can get them on board, the rest of the team is going to be easy, isn't it? What would you advise somebody to start with if they've got some change project coming up? How could they do it better than they could have done in the past?

Mike Wessel (37:29.476)
Yeah, my biggest advice there, really think about your people plan, right? So with as much rigor as we've vetted the technology or the process change, apply as much energy to the people plan as well. And maybe not as much, but be thoughtful about it. So what that might look like, my tip would be really schedule a conversation with managers this week. If there's some change you're in the middle of, right, go check in with your managers right now. And that check-in shouldn't be about the tech or the process.

But check in and see how's your team feeling about the change? Are we having some big emotions? Are we having some heavy emotions? Are you getting a lot of questions? And then use that input to really shape your next communication or that next coaching session. So that's something that you could really put into effect right now. That's just a quick conversation and just being thoughtful about where are our people at? Are they feeling heavy on this? Is it feeling easy? Or do we need to just kind of address a question that we really haven't hit on?

That should really help surface some kind of insight and identify maybe some bottleneck or some blind spot we missed.

Paul (38:34.082)
Amazing. I'll you what, for full transparency as well, what's gone through my head there is sharing that internally to other line managers. We've got a few projects going on that we always have that involve change for people. And I'm just going to share these tips straight away. So yeah, really practicing what you preach there. If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to leave us a comment, five star review, whatever it is on the format you're listening. Hit the follow button though and don't miss future episodes. We're to be exploring this topic a lot over the coming weeks.

Mike Wessel (38:49.328)
That's it.

Paul (39:04.024)
think I might be back to picking your brains as well Mike, so really appreciate it.

Mike Wessel (39:07.991)
Absolutely, I'd be happy to join anytime, Paul.